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Alle Bewertungen zu JobBOSS² Filter anwenden
- Branche: Metallabbau
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Weitere für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
We have been using JobBoss since 1993 for one simple reason, " It Works ".
Choosing an ERP software is a tough decision and can take a lot of time, talk to JobBoss users because they will make the decision much easier.
Vorteile
All modules are fully integrated which makes it very simple to get accurate and valuable information for running your business.
Nachteile
JBW inventory related to sheet and plate products is a challenge and in all honesty doesn't work in the real world of job shops.
- Branche: Konsumgüter
- Unternehmensgröße: 1.001–5.000 Mitarbeiter
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 Shop is a comprehensive job tracking system
Vorteile
It is very easy to use and its accessible any time, any where. Easy to create quote, order and estimates. Whole process flows smoothly.
Nachteile
Functionality to customize display complied data can be added for more user friendly and productive environment.
- Branche: Elektrische/elektronische Fertigung
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Quelle der Bewertung
Alot of product if used fully
Vorteile
The reports provide as much data, or as little data, as you want. The ability to "quickview" to several areas of a part, material, or customer information keeps from having to navigate through several screens. A great combination of manufacturing, quality, and accounting. The cost of the software was a key factor in the purchase. The technical support is top notch! The trainers are very knowledgeable and patient.
Nachteile
Constant glitches and updates. They state the updates are done every 6 weeks or so, but it feels they arrive more frequently than that. It feels like we get constant error messages or need to reboot the server to "unlock" locked files.
- Branche: Kunststoffe
- Unternehmensgröße: 51–200 Mitarbeiter
- Wöchentlich für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 Shop System
Vorteile
Robust database, good data customization options
Nachteile
Interface is not very intuitive, not easy to adapt to existing processes
- Branche: Elektrische/elektronische Fertigung
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Quelle der Bewertung
Review of Shoptech Enterprise
Vorteile
The seamless movement from quote to delivery with tractability at ever step.
Nachteile
Shop floor personnel are now accountable and a key part of the production process.
- Branche: Maschinerie
- Unternehmensgröße: 2–10 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 6-12 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
New user, experience with Oracle ERP.
Vorteile
Very user friendly and easy to learn. It is covers the functions very well, especially the quality module.
Nachteile
No cons at this time, still a beginner. I think the cost can be prohibited. For a small company it can be difficult to manage the data and stay within budget.
- Branche: Kunststoffe
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Quelle der Bewertung
K&E Plastics
Vorteile
We went from 4 different software systems until we purchased E2 and now we just have 1.
Customer Service is quick and reliable.
Nachteile
Some simple updates could improve the system and make it more user friendly.
Some times we get an answer from sales and implement the change but then find out that technical customer service tell us something else.
- Branche: Maschinerie
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 1-5 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Thank you
Besides getting used to everything, so far so good!
Vorteile
I like that it is pretty simple to use once you get the hang of where everything is.
The customer service was very helpful!
Nachteile
I don't like that when I make a mistake, I have to start from the beginning. I can't just push back. I have to save close and reopen. I also don't like that I can't change an invoice number if I make a mistake. I have to completed delete it and start over
- Branche: Kunststoffe
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Quelle der Bewertung
Great product and great customer service.
Vorteile
The base software works great for our needs and is easy to use. When special needs arise, Shoptech offers custom programming to handle these needs. They will work with you to find a solution. Super service done in a courteous and timely matter.
Nachteile
We were not able to integrate E2 with UPS WorldShip, nor with QuickBooks in accounting/payroll.
- Branche: Elektrische/elektronische Fertigung
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 1-5 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
The more you use the better it gets
We started using E2 a couple years ago and are more than happy with the benefits of adding this system. Our processes match well with E2 and we continue to look at what ways we can better utilize this system to make our lives easier. Rarely do we find that there is anything inherently wrong with the software, as long as you take the time to understand how tables are related. A powerful tool if used correctly.
Vorteile
Record keeping, order entry/tracking, and customer accounts are more than accessible. The added Quickview pane is a staple in our day to day operations.
Nachteile
Would like to be able to Edit reports with more ease. Without a solid background, its easy to find yourself calling their support line.
- Branche: Luft- & Raumfahrt
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 Shop System
Vorteile
The interface is simple and easy to use. The support is good too. I call whenever I am not able to figure something out and they will provide assistance.
Nachteile
The reports are lacking and sometime we need to use Crystal Software to get the information we need. Also, you can only have one screen open at a time. The new E2 Mfg takes care of this.
- Branche: Glas, Keramik & Beton
- Unternehmensgröße: 501–1.000 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 6-12 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Ultimate control for your business
Vorteile
All needed features needed for a succefull fully controlled business is available in one friendly user interface
Nachteile
Adding Multiple language support could help none native English users to use this software and benefit from its wide features to boost their business.
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Quelle der Bewertung
Our company has been using the E2 Shop System since January of 1998. We are a small family owned & operated fastener manufacturing company on the Southside of Chicago. Our 2nd generation family members find this software program to be very user friendly, especially back when we first began using the program. At that time a few of us were not very familiar with using a computer let alone a whole software program.
The E2 Shop System program flows effectively from one step to the next; beginning at order entry and ending with receipt of payment for that order. It didn't take any of us too long to get acquainted with the program and all it's benefits. We are currently using version 7.2.12. The customer support and help line agents are all very friendly and knowledgeable. Any issue we have called about has been resolved within an acceptable time frame. The updating process of each new version is easy to learn and quickly downloaded. Over the years we have all been very satisfied with this system, we highly recommend it.
- Branche: Metallabbau
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Quelle der Bewertung
JMC Burlington
Vorteile
The shop floor management part of the system is very good.
The support provided by Shoptech has been excellent. They respond quickly and are very helpful.
Nachteile
The accounting module is very elementary and badly designed. If I were to do it again, I would link the system with QuickBooks and not use the Shoptech accounting module at all.
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Quelle der Bewertung
We are a job shop that produces short run products. The most important sales tool that we have is our ability to turn quotes around quickly and accurately. We currently use a series of Excel spreadsheets, Word documents, and Quickbooks to produce our work orders, packing slips, quotations, invoices, etc.
We purchased E2 in 2012 after a series of web preview sessions. We were hoping that E2 could improve this area for us in addition to down stream activities such as job costing and scheduling. The sales team assured us that the software would be a great improvement over our current methods. After investing a lot of time and money into the software, our process is slower and less accurate than before.
The software has many glitches that the E2 tech team does not seam to care about. After discussing with them how displeased we are with the software, they simply said that they do not do refunds no matter what. I would recommend investing more time in researching systems before you pay the hefty price tag for E2.
- Branche: Metallabbau
- Unternehmensgröße: 51–200 Mitarbeiter
- Weitere für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Great software for Custom Machining
Overall definitely recommend this software to small and medium sized custom manufacturing firms.
Vorteile
Lots of keystrokes eliminated by copy features. Also when entering a quote all info is easily transferred to Jobs, RFQ's, and PO's.
Nachteile
We do not use the accounting part of the software. Wish it could easily link to Simply accounting with Canadian tax updates.
- Branche: Metallabbau
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Quelle der Bewertung
Quality/Plant Manager Daily Use
Vorteile
It's very easy to navigate with use of icons. No more than three clicks to get anything you need.
Nachteile
I would like to be able to open more than one module section at a time. If you are working on a quote or building a job and need to check on something in the Quality module, you need to close it out or open a new session altogether.
- Branche: Metallabbau
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Wöchentlich für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Great software package for a small fabrication job shop
For the price, I believe JobBoss is a great ERP system for a small Job Shop.
Vorteile
Integrated Payroll, Scheduling, G/L. The software package has all of your basic needs at the right price.
Nachteile
Everything runs through a report to look at information. Few query screens. Complex reports are hard to modify in Crystal.
- Branche: Maschinenbau oder Wirtschaftsingenieurwesen
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Quelle der Bewertung
I have used E2 since 2004, had very little issues with quick resolve.
Vorteile
Tech support and customer service is wonderful. Rarely on hold for very long to get through to support. If they can't help me immediately they always call me back. And usually with a minimal wait.
Nachteile
Searching and linking are sometimes frustrating. Have to go to several screens to get all information you may be looking for.
- Branche: Elektrische/elektronische Fertigung
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Quelle der Bewertung
JobBoss Review
Vorteile
If you understand what you are doing, it goes well. When you attend a class or have someone come to your location, they are very helpful with giving tips and explaining what you are doing. The online classes are informative but don't always work well.
Nachteile
I think things need to be explained better. I didn't start using the system right after we bought it, and by the time I was starting using it, I didn't remember everything that had been explained and didn't know who to contact. I have now passed the one-year anniversary and don't know what is still available to me and what is covered by the yearly fee. I was given the impression that there was normally an upgrade every year. I know there was one last year, but I did not get notification although I am the contact at our company.
- Branche: Metallabbau
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 6-12 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Nice Software to use for Small Scale Industry
Vorteile
Covers all aspects from Supply Chain, Inventory to Production& attendance records to Accounts Payable and Cheques. One stop
Nachteile
Scheduling is time consuming and not user friendly. Definitely needs to improve the scheduling engine in software.
- Branche: Elektrische/elektronische Fertigung
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Weitere für Mehr als 1 Jahr genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Our experience all in all was very good. You exceeded most of our expectations.
We thought we would be in difficult situtation in the first year but was really quite the opposite. The learning curve was very short and has not only helped us its caused us to look at business differently, especially in relation to pricing and cost.
Vorteile
Customer support. We always had prompt and professional support.
We haven't used it lately but the training webinars were very helpful.
Nachteile
Probably the price, although it's probably competitive for the market place.
We don't really have any big negative with the product.
- Branche: Metallabbau
- Unternehmensgröße: 51–200 Mitarbeiter
- Weitere für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Implementation was surprisingly smooth and non-disruptive. We were operational in weeks rather...
Vorteile
Quick and easy for a newcomer to get up and operational. The basic training at Shop Tech training facilities do a nice job for preparation.
Nachteile
Miss the recorded on-line tutorials that used to be offered for advanced modules. These were useful as we could watch or review them at a moments notice, anytime of day.
- Branche: Luft- & Raumfahrt
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Weitere für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Great software to run your company
Vorteile
E2 is easy to use while providing detailed features. The technical support team is very helpful with any questions whether it be how to do something or help with hardware issues.
Nachteile
Would like more detailed/options for searching. Would also like to see a better module for internal returns/rework/nonconforming.
- Branche: Metallabbau
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Quelle der Bewertung
Fab shop power user
Vorteile
Was not too complicated to install, they provided support as needed.
Nachteile
I thought there would be more of a detailed, step by step plan for the install. We ended up catching some mistakes about order after the fact. We were able to get it all right, a couple of the modules were just a little more complicated.
- Branche: Maschinerie
- Unternehmensgröße: 2–10 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 1-5 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 Shop System for CNC Machine Shop
Vorteile
The E2 Shop System has been a great help in tracking jobs/parts as well as productivity. It has also trued up our estimating time, which has helped give our customers better estimates of delivery dates.
Nachteile
I would like to see enhanced database data mining functionality. The canned reports are generally pretty good, but to do more robust statistical analysis is a little cumbersome.
- Branche: Luft- & Raumfahrt
- Unternehmensgröße: 2–10 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für Mehr als 1 Jahr genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Love it!
JobBOSS is easy to use and has so many functions. It's a great all-around software.
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Quelle der Bewertung
Kansas Plastics is a small custom injection molding company. We make a wide variety of parts for both large and small customers. When we moved to E2 Shop System, there was a need to integrate our manufacturing processes, inventory, quality and accounting under one program. The program we were using was limited in what it could do and the reports we could get. We also needed to implement payroll into the system as well.
We purchased two seats and the Redwing payroll in 2003 and currently have 6 seats plus the data collection. We were very pleased with the transfer of important data from the former system to the new E2. The learning curve was quick and if we had questions they were promptly answered. When we needed something that was out of the ordinary, the technicians programmed a hotspot for us. We have been very happy with Shoptech Software, for providing the data we wanted and for the ease of use and the support has been great.
- Branche: Metallabbau
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 1-5 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 Shop System
The Shoptech E2 Shop System is a top manufacturing solution that delivers optimal control and increased efficiency with its extensive and easy-to-use modules. A fully integrated solution, the E2 Shop System improves shop management with comprehensive features and an intuitive interface that is user-friendly. Information and processes are managed in a single system, giving businesses access to the critical data they need to effectively run their operations. With the E2 Shop System, companies can gain total control over their shops.
Vorteile
Estimating, Orders, Purchasing, Scheduling, Data Collection, Quality Control, Shipping, Accounting
Nachteile
system has to be truncated once a month
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Quelle der Bewertung
Palmer DCS is a company that specializes in electrical controls. We build custom products and standard products. We started Palmer DCS in 2012 and after doing an asset purchase. As part of the purchase we used the seller software for six months. We were looking for a software system that could have estimating and shop flow control.
Went purchased E2 in March 2012 and went live July 1, 2012.
E2 has excellent customer support. The software has so many functional issues it is scaring. We call customer support 2-3 times a week with issues.
E2 is weak on inventory management, only records the receivable and sales entry when you sell something, does not relieve inventory and record COGS.
Accounting module is very inflexible, no live posting to G/L; it is a month end batch post.
Software is fragile, crashes all the time. We converted from Access database to a SQL data base which helped. Reports are ok. You have to know crystal to modify.
- Branche: Kunststoffe
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 has been a great tool for us.
Vorteile
Product: Simple, Effective, Time Saver
Vendor: Good Customer Service, Good Price Point, Most issues resolved on the phone.
Nachteile
Product: Scheduling
Vendor: Sometimes I think it would be nice to have an account representative assigned to K&E so we always talk to the same individual.
- Branche: Maschinenbau oder Wirtschaftsingenieurwesen
- Täglich für 1-5 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Very versatile product. Allows a multitude of users to customize the system to the way they...
The system is very versatile, and can be used for a multitude of industries doing different things. The customer support is unlike anything I have ever used. Every question has an answer before your phone call is over.
Vorteile
I like the customer support the most along with the systems ease of use. All screens are of similar background which makes learning the new modules much less intimidating.
Nachteile
The accounting module uses batch accounting which I find a hassle .. I like information flowing to the G/L instantly so I can view my bottom line and see how entries affect my companies financial position.
- Branche: Maschinenbau oder Wirtschaftsingenieurwesen
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Wöchentlich für 6-12 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
All in One BOSS
Vorteile
JOBboss is the best software to choose as it allows a user to navigate through shop management to job ordering and quoting, manufacturing orders, accounting and Payrolls as well. It is vital for the job creation and tracking of workflow of engineering process and reporting with controls to measure profitablity.
Nachteile
Jobboss is a vital software any manufacturing shop looking for total management for their inventory and parts to track record of employees. Customer Support can be improvised afterwards quoting the software demands to increase sales.
- Branche: Maschinenbau oder Wirtschaftsingenieurwesen
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 - Full of Glitches and not user friendly
Vorteile
Yet to find anything that has impressed me, the frustration with this software is beyond comprehension
Nachteile
The list is just too long to write out, it took 2 years to implement and I have to use Excel spreadsheet to check the software's numbers, Shoptech is in denial of the issues
- Branche: Maschinenbau oder Wirtschaftsingenieurwesen
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Quelle der Bewertung
Works for our Machine Shop/Mfg Company
Vorteile
ease of use, low overhead, very good customer support if you are on the maintenance plan
Nachteile
Reports in general are not great. Many reports are poorly thought out and not from a users point of view but rather a programmer. Customization is not easily (or cheaply) accomplished.
- Branche: Elektrische/elektronische Fertigung
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Monatlich für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Strong Job Shop Solution
Simplex is not your traditional job shop for which JobBOSS was created. That said, we've been able to use its core functionality to streamline our business processes and data analytics. JobBOSS has helped us improve our profitability and better manage our customer and supplier relationships. JobBOSS interfaces well with some add-on software to track non-conformances and customer touches (CRM).
Vorteile
The ability to quickly set up similar quotes and jobs using past quotes and jobs. The job costing functionality/reporting has been key to improving profitability.
Nachteile
The scheduling functionality is too complicated (too much overhead) for a job shop with no machines to use.
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Quelle der Bewertung
We are a custom display/store fixture manufacturer, and each project is designed to meet our customer's specific needs & requirements. Essentially every project is different and each may use different processes in our shop. E2 handles them with ease.
We've been using it for years now, and while we haven't fully exploited all its features & benefits, it is clear to us that this fully integrated system is up to the task. Coming from more manual & fragmented processes (spreadsheets), E2 has consolidated all our production information into meaningful data.
E2 was easy to setup, and once you put the time in to setup all your work centers and other parameters, it makes quoting, routing & production much simpler.
I recommend as a minimum you sign up for product updates. We keep our software current and they are great at providing product updates, whether for bug fixes, or new features, they are always working to improve the system.
- Branche: Automotive
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 1-5 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Not what was promised
HORRIBLE
Vorteile
Navigation thru Inventory /Estimating was OK...
Nachteile
WE CAN NOT SHIP GLOBALLY ....
WHO BUILDS SOFTWARE THAT WONT INTEGRATE WITH UPS ,, ONLY COMMERCIAL INVOICE AVAILABLE IS FOR CANADA ONLY... SERIOUSLY !
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Quelle der Bewertung
The E2 Shop System is a very user friendly system. When Dimax Corporation made the switch from Peachtree Manufacturing to E2 in 2008 we were able to self teach. It has simplified our quoting process and the system quickly identifies when the cost has gone up on a part. We were able to eliminate double entry of our production schedule and we are now able to plan to a workcenter capacity. E2 has been a great tool for our company and also moved our quality system along...I can't imagine doing business without E2. It has become a very important integral part of our business from the quote through to shipping. The support from the E2 staff has been excellent. We highly recommend E2.
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Quelle der Bewertung
We manufacture hopper cones and sell grain bins. We were previously using an Access database to make work orders and track cones, but we wanted something that would also provide costing and track inventory. Now we have a system that does that for us and we are able to accurately cost out our products, making us more competitive in the market. Our production manager loves the E2 Shop System for estimating new products and the shop foreman is pleased with the job travelers and how precise they are compared to what we used to do. As the controller, I am very happy with the integration with Quick Books for billing and invoicing.
We took our time implementing the software and we are continually using more functions and learning new things. We have always received excellent support from our consultant. Even phoning the help desk has been a positive experience. The wait time is reasonable and they have always resolved the issue.
- Branche: Automotive
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Täglich für 1-5 Monate genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 and Quickbooks
So far so good. Support is great.
Vorteile
We looked at different software and I called users for all of them. By far E2 was the highest rated if you need to use it with QB (even if you don't, still highly rated).
Nachteile
With anything, it's a learning curve. There are a couple of little and very minor things that we found work arounds for. So no big issues
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Quelle der Bewertung
We are a small hydraulic company. We needed a better way to inventory and process our stock, as well as needed a streamlined system to expedite our orders and shipments. Using our old software was just too limiting for us and it could not handle many of the needs we were requiring, such as the ability to inventory, so we decided to switch to the E2 Shop System and have never needed to look back. It was very easy for our employees to learn and has worked out great for us so far. We used the customer support quite a bit in the beginning, and it was a nice tool to have when questions came up. The customer service team was quick to answer questions, and were willing to find the answers and get back to us if they did know how to solve a particular issue. We have been using this software for many years now and our business has definitely benefited from the E2 shop system. We will continue to use this system for many years to come.
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Quelle der Bewertung
I enjoy using E2 Shop System. I used Peachtree accounting prior. I actually find E2 more user friendly. E2 functions are quicker and simpler. Mistakes can be found and corrected easily.
I like the inventory function. It has proven most useful with my keyseat cutter product line. The reports are easy to understand and use for your personal information for our company. I really like the inventory reports.
We did have one time when we needed customer service. We received excellent customer service. The representative was polite, prompt and helpful. Our problem was solved in a timely manner.
I also like the job costing feature. Inputting the time cards is easy. It makes reporting on job costing simple.
We use a third party payroll company. I would like to be able to import the paycheck information into E2 without having to type in each individual pay check. I think this would be a time saving feature for our company.
- Branche: Metallabbau
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Quelle der Bewertung
Great system, not hard to learn and very versatile.
Vorteile
It is very versatile and it eliminates processes by entering things once and it transfers to all aspects of the software.
Nachteile
Updates can be a pain on windows 7. I have not personally had any bad experiences with software other than the updates on Windows 7 64 bit.
- Branche: Metallabbau
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Quelle der Bewertung
Best software for fabrication and manufacturing!
Vorteile
This is one of the easiest software packages to use but it does more than most of the very expensive programs. Shoptech has great customer service and technical support.
Nachteile
Not much to dislike. A few glitches here and there but nothing tech support can't fix.
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Quelle der Bewertung
We are a job shop that does a wide variety of work, from scientific, to aerospace, and everything in-between. We have been using JobBOSS since 2001. I implemented it when I started, which was a great improvement from writing carbon copies of packing lists. We are currently at 11.5.3 and just made the upgrade from 11.2 to take advantage of the new Quick Books integration. Exact JobBOSS is a great product and simplifies many processes. It stores all of your data in one location. It offers many ways to analyze data to let you know how you are doing. It is very user friendly, and the Exact portal allows you to suggest enhancements that you would like to see on future releases. There are also many ways to make customized reports so that you can get the exact data you want. The time we have saved and the value of the data that you can extract is priceless. I would recommend Exact JobBOSS to other machine shops for sure!
- Branche: Kunststoffe
- Unternehmensgröße: 11–50 Mitarbeiter
- Weitere für Mehr als 2 Jahre genutzt
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Quelle der Bewertung
Office Admin
Vorteile
I really how all steps within the system are connected. You don't have reenter things. Everything is carried over.
Nachteile
Once things are closed they can't be reopened. If I wanted to make changes to an invoice, I have to and an A or something to the end.
- Branche: Metallabbau
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Quelle der Bewertung
E2 shop software
Vorteile
Easy to use functions to do everything you need from quoting, processing orders, creating packing slips and making invoices
You can email directly to customers from the sofrware
Nachteile
So far so good with the program. Just takes some getting used too
- Branche: Metallabbau
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Quelle der Bewertung
Product works well.
Vorteile
Ease of use and vendor responds quickly when there is a problem.
Nachteile
the bubbles that were instituted in one of the last releases. It would be good in a training module but not in the actual one being used as the bubbles get in the way of the work.
- Branche: Elektrische/elektronische Fertigung
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Quelle der Bewertung
A must have
Vorteile
It's the first software that try's to get the shop floor to communicate flawlessly with the office work, witch we all know was impossible thanks to human errors!
Nachteile
The price is hard for a small start up company, and the implantation is hard for a company who has never had a system in place before...a lot of the shop jargon needs to be cleared up with maybe a better; if your this type of company this is what we see most shops do/use/operate....this is what E2 thinks "job order" means, this is what we E2 says a "work order" is; and this is how they work together in the system!!! Of course that's more for the place's who don't have a system yet or even the ones who want to start from the ground up.